Interview with Listen

Years ago I meet a stranger in a dark bar in Montreal's Pointe-Saint-Charles neighbourhood. Six years later, after many lessons, sprays and a wild chase, I am interviewing my friend and legend Listen.

He started us off:

Listen: I want to see everybody’s graffiti, you wanna talk about anarchism that’s the spirit of the medium. It’s pretty diluted these days, you can look on YouTube for tutorials or whatever.

If you have a can and a surface, anything that you and I see in the public realm, even it’s defined private property, it’s still public space.

I wish there was a more public conversation. Not we’ve decreed this a legal wall. More like those who want to paint in the public eye can have access to the space.

Slim: Is that why you do the bird?

I guess so. You know when you do something for so long that it morphs into this habitual thing? Imagine you’re cooking for yourself and you like cooking macaroni and cheese or vegan sushi. You get into the routine and because you do it enough, you put enough time in, you get really good at doing that one thing. It’s out of habit, not the intention of mastery.

You’re pushing multiple directions, there’s one that becomes easier so you continue that way because there’s less obstacles and it gets reduced to "now I’m drawing a fucking bird on shit."

It’s a disarming image. I remember sitting in a park in St Henri next to the railroad tracks. This 6 year old is running around and points to a box I painted and is like “hey Dad it’s the bird guy again.”

This is why, THIS IS WHY.

Unintentionally, because I pushed this image, I made things more simplistic in terms of a street throw up. I can pull it off in a few minutes, which is nice for major cities. To hear a child be stoked on it, that’s pretty encouraging.

What’s the largest bird you’ve painted?

If this one wasn’t the biggest it was top 5 for sure. This photo is from a while after it was painted, the ground was full of debris and rubble when I painted it. But yeah, this building burned down on the corner and the location and texture of the wall was too good to not paint. I only had a few days in town, and I was obsessed with the spot. I asked around to see if anyone would lend me an extension ladder since I didn’t travel with my own, lol. No one would lend me one so I had to get my hands on one somehow. At the time the Home Depot had a garden centre with an area with a lower fence around the skids full of soil and fertilizer. I had put several baskets of paint there before and come back after a few hours to scoop em. So I had two nights left in town, I thought I would grab this ladder and leave it by the soil and lower-fenced zone. However when I got to that area it was fully closed off. Maybe too late in the day or whatever…

So I was thinking maybe I could just walk out with it or something but then it hit me I could use the ladder to get out. I fully extended the ladder out of view of cameras. I was expecting a worker to come assist me but it was a ghost town in there. So I leaned the ladder against the third level of bricks. No one came so I pulled up the ladder and put it on the other side of the fence. That same evening I painted the wall. My good friend Barfo was down and he and his dog kept six across the street. I stopped for every car that drove by which was a workout, I was in better shape back then. Not sure if it’s legible from the photo but I quoted a FUGAZI song because I’m a huge dork.

I feel like everyone talks about how St. Henri [neighbourhood in Montréal] has changed a lot. Care to weigh in on the change you saw during your long term residence in that neighbourhood?

I haven’t been there in a few years but it feels to me like a typical trajectory of gentrification.

Working class neighbourhood with cheap rent. Outsiders move in for affordability (myself included). Real estate speculators buy the buildings. While new businesses pop up to cater to new residents. Then the new (and sometimes older) landlords jack up the rent across the board. Business associations up their fees to fund the smoother flow of capital. The city increases taxes to pay for new promenades that lubricate the flow of capital. All of this pushes people out of the neighbourhood.

It’s a clear reflection of the values of those in power. Whatever is good for business is good.

No concern for quality of life, the inner workings of a neighbourhood, the history, the people who built the neighbourhood.

When the cycle is complete the majority of the people there have no clue what came before. They are there for the facade, the shell of the former lively community, to cosplay in an idea they have that is transposed onto the place itself.

In Montreal the process is slowed down by tenants rights organizations and co-ops, activities that make it uncomfortable for the movement of capital. Sometimes in Quebec this comes down to language. Businesses don’t want to operate in Quebec because of language laws.

Short answer is: way she goes.

In your time writing graffiti have you experienced much of an attitude shift in the subculture?

I think I started early 2000s, first thing I painted was when I was like 8yrs old or something. It was with a chrome fan cap on the concrete outdoor stairwell of my childhood home. I wrote “secret hideout” with an arrow pointing toward the spider-ridden woodpile under the back deck. I got in shit when my dad found this but he also laughed at the irony of pointing an arrow towards a “secret hideout.”

Attitudes towards graffiti have shifted drastically. I used to rack books from Chapters and sell them at a used bookstore a block away from the Chapters. Make $100 selling art books or whatever.

At the time I was doing that there was maybe one or two books about graffiti on the shelf at Chapters. A few years later half of the art section was “graffiti and street art.” I wanna say by mid to late 2000s, there was a bit of a bandwagon publishing books about graffiti.

What’s the best moment you’ve had with graffiti and what’s the worst moment you’ve had with graffiti?

Every time I paint becomes the best moment I’ve had painting. I like to try new things when painting and I’m building on what I’ve done before, so the moment that I’m painting is a culmination of a lifetime of work.

The worst times I’ve had is getting caught up in someone else’s bad decisions. There’s a tendency when a group of writers get together to compete to do the most impulsive audacious act. It’s annoying at best and has landed me in some shitty scenarios by proximity.

Do you have a goal or finish line? Or do you believe in the unwinnable race?

Great question. There is no race, no goal, I’m not competing. There is a physicality to painting, but it’s not a sport.

My attitude has definitely changed in the past 20 or so years. Initially, I think my intention was to communicate to people. That something else was possible, to break the cycle of capitalism in a way that I was good at. After getting attention from stuff I had painted and seeing the public discussion, I shifted into a more destructive direction. Eventually I settled into realizing the act itself was enough and I can’t control how it’s interpreted. It became a fun way to interact with my surroundings. While still showing that laws for property are unimportant, hopefully make people laugh, or change the way they see their surroundings.

I guess to boil it down, my intent is to be an anti-capitalist force. Up until very recently I stole all of my supplies, would only sell my art for anarchist fundraisers, etc.

I think it’s cool that you buy cans now, you put in infinite hours over so many years. There has to be a time when comfort is a goal.

For sure, I still would rather rack paint. The store credit thing is much more difficult now though.

I’m not sure how much paint I’ve acquired for free, but for a couple decades I didn’t pay for coffee beans. I would get quality beans averaging $15 a pound. I’d go through 3 lbs a month maybe? So over 240 months that’s $10,000 worth of coffee. One pound at a time.

I think it’s important to note that was never a goal or milestone. It is just a result of daily push-back.

It’s funny trying to transition things that you do obsessively into activities you do when you are feelin' it.

Definitely, there’s an effect that generations of manufactured scarcity has on an individual. The behaviour is kind of like, if I don’t do everything and anything right now, it will be gone tomorrow.

Then if there’s a surplus, no one wants to do anything. It’s interesting how these systems can effect an individual’s behaviour

One real example: where I work, our break room has some basic supplies like coffee, hot chocolate, milk, cream, Gatorade in the summer, etc.

So when we first received the packets of hot chocolate, there was one box of them. It was gone in a day, people hoarded them. Then more boxes were ordered, and more, and more. Then there was a whole closet full of hot chocolate, like 20 boxes. Then no one was interested anymore. We have universal access and a surplus so there’s no hoarding.

The tragedy of the commons will only happen when there’s a perceived scarcity. This can be applied to other parts of life too, like if you have a bit of spare time there pressure to make it productive. Or a pressure to be the best or to be competitive in whichever activity. That sort of perspective is insatiable.

I guess I’m confused by our existence. We could all be comfortable and have more than enough but instead five multi-billionaires have super yachts and the rest of us are supposed to “hustle” or have three jobs . Or like this Air Canada CEO makes 12 million a year and a striking flight attendant makes 35k a year. Also only gets paid for time in the air.

Something fundamental has to change. I started adding “???” To everything I paint now because things have gone so sideways.

Sorta fucks with our collective imagination as well.

Most systems we live under are broken yet most people see them as a given. When it’s all a human invention and we can undo it as well.

Speaking of which I gotta go to work soon!

I heard one summer you did a rooftop campaign. I love walking on Parc/St Joseph tryna' catch a peek of the roof with Jaroe.

Yeah I wanted to paint spots that hadn’t been painted before, so I tried to paint a bunch of stuff like that. Not sure how many I did but it was fun.

Who are some writers that you don’t know personally who’ve influenced you? And who are the writers that you know personally that have influenced you?

There was someone who wrote phrases and signed it -🔲boy, most small town elaborate graffiti something an alienated weirdo metal head would paint. Random SLAYER tags as well and in terms of actual technique I can say seeing ribity throw ups got me to move more in that direction.

I guess anyone I’ve spent enough time painting with has rubbed off. Kind of a long list at this point but yeah anyone who has been a consistent painting partner. There’s a level of trust involved when someone is keeping six for you and a dynamic that has to work.

Did you ever think you’d do graffiti long term? Have you ever thought of quitting?

I never considered stopping, at the same time I never thought I would be doing it this infrequently either.